https://signmovesreality.blogspot.com/2025/12/jesse-cannot-answer-whether-he-thinks.html
He begins his piece with this fundamental premise:
“God is eternal.”
“God is eternal.”
This is true in classical Christian theology, but Feodor uses it as a premise to argue that all attributes must be eternally expressed. Eternity means God exists outside of time, not that His attributes are constantly exercised in relation to creation. For example, God is eternally merciful, but mercy is only exercised when creatures exist who need mercy. Eternity refers to God’s nature, not His activity toward creation.
“God is eternally active such that His being is always manifesting Truth, Goodness, and Beauty.”
“The choosing of wrongdoing upsets and corrupts the perfect order, the Truth and Goodness and Beauty of everything God creates. The attributes creatures are given in being made in the image and likeness of God are marred, and so correction is necessary to bring everything back into perfection.”
Agreed, but correction itself is an act of justice. This shows justice is not only distributive, but also retributive and restorative. Feodor's own logic admits justice must respond to wrongdoing, contradicting its earlier denial. If correction is necessary, then wrongdoing is real. If wrongdoing is real, then justice must punish and restore. Consequently, justice cannot merely be reduced to distributive harmony.
“God is eternally active such that His being is always manifesting Truth, Goodness, and Beauty.”
This collapses God’s immanent life (His inner being) into His economic activity (His relation to creation). God’s eternal activity is self‑sufficient within the Trinity; Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit eternally manifest truth, goodness, and beauty in their communion. But this does not mean those attributes must be manifest in creation at all times. Creation is contingent, not necessary, so God’s attributes are not dependent on it.
“There is no change or quit in God, and therefore no change or quit in His attributes.”
Divine immutability means God’s essence does not change, but it does not mean that His attributes are always exercised in the same way. Justice is eternally part of God’s nature, but its expression can vary: retributive when punishing sin, distributive when rewarding righteousness, restorative when healing creation. Feodor wrongly equates immutability with uniform activity.
“Therefore, if Jesse maintains that God’s Justice is retributive — reactive to wrongdoing — then he logically assumes that wrongdoing is eternal.”
This is a false inference. Retributive justice requires wrongdoing to exist, but only in history, not eternity. Wrongdoing can be finite, yet justice remains eternal because it also includes reward and preservation of order. Justice does not vanish when wrongdoing ends. It simply shifts its mode of expression.
“But that violates the scriptural and orthodox representation that through Christ’s sacrifice, eternal redemption or eternal redemption & eternal damnation will be accomplished once for all eternity.”
Redemption presupposes wrongdoing, but does not make wrongdoing eternal. Christ’s sacrifice is the decisive act of justice in history, satisfying retributive justice once for all. Justice continues eternally in vindication of the righteous and preservation of harmony. The biblical text affirms both retribution (Romans 6:23) and restoration (Revelation 21:4).
“So what happens to an eternal God’s eternal attribute of Justice if wrongdoing has been stopped by perfection of retributive justice?”
Justice does not “stop.” It is broader than punishment. It also means reward, vindication, and maintenance of order. Once wrongdoing ends, justice is eternally expressed in the perfect distribution of goods and the eternal flourishing of the redeemed. Its mode shifts from punishment to reward and preservation of order.
“And for that matter, was this attribute just dormant before creation? Only to be wakened up by the eating of an apple? Or prior to that the rebellion of angel?”
Dormancy is a category mistake. Attributes exist eternally in God’s essence, but their exercise toward creatures begins when creatures exist. Justice was eternally part of God’s nature, but its relational expression began with creation. This is consistent with attributes like mercy or patience, which are eternally possessed but exercised in time.
“This notion violates the necessity that any attribute of God is eternally expressed. In God, being and act are the same.”
Feodor confuses “eternally possessed” with “eternally expressed.” God’s attributes are eternally real in His essence, but their expression depends on whether there is an object to receive them. For example, God was eternally Creator in potency, but creation itself began in time. Being and act are the same in God, but not all acts are directed toward creation eternally.
“There is no change or quit in God, and therefore no change or quit in His attributes.”
Divine immutability means God’s essence does not change, but it does not mean that His attributes are always exercised in the same way. Justice is eternally part of God’s nature, but its expression can vary: retributive when punishing sin, distributive when rewarding righteousness, restorative when healing creation. Feodor wrongly equates immutability with uniform activity.
“Therefore, if Jesse maintains that God’s Justice is retributive — reactive to wrongdoing — then he logically assumes that wrongdoing is eternal.”
This is a false inference. Retributive justice requires wrongdoing to exist, but only in history, not eternity. Wrongdoing can be finite, yet justice remains eternal because it also includes reward and preservation of order. Justice does not vanish when wrongdoing ends. It simply shifts its mode of expression.
“But that violates the scriptural and orthodox representation that through Christ’s sacrifice, eternal redemption or eternal redemption & eternal damnation will be accomplished once for all eternity.”
Redemption presupposes wrongdoing, but does not make wrongdoing eternal. Christ’s sacrifice is the decisive act of justice in history, satisfying retributive justice once for all. Justice continues eternally in vindication of the righteous and preservation of harmony. The biblical text affirms both retribution (Romans 6:23) and restoration (Revelation 21:4).
“So what happens to an eternal God’s eternal attribute of Justice if wrongdoing has been stopped by perfection of retributive justice?”
Justice does not “stop.” It is broader than punishment. It also means reward, vindication, and maintenance of order. Once wrongdoing ends, justice is eternally expressed in the perfect distribution of goods and the eternal flourishing of the redeemed. Its mode shifts from punishment to reward and preservation of order.
“And for that matter, was this attribute just dormant before creation? Only to be wakened up by the eating of an apple? Or prior to that the rebellion of angel?”
Dormancy is a category mistake. Attributes exist eternally in God’s essence, but their exercise toward creatures begins when creatures exist. Justice was eternally part of God’s nature, but its relational expression began with creation. This is consistent with attributes like mercy or patience, which are eternally possessed but exercised in time.
“This notion violates the necessity that any attribute of God is eternally expressed. In God, being and act are the same.”
Feodor confuses “eternally possessed” with “eternally expressed.” God’s attributes are eternally real in His essence, but their expression depends on whether there is an object to receive them. For example, God was eternally Creator in potency, but creation itself began in time. Being and act are the same in God, but not all acts are directed toward creation eternally.
“Therefore the Church Fathers and orthodox theology has ever understood the eternal Justice of God to be expressed as perfect orderliness according to Truth, Goodness, and Beauty.”
This is one strand of patristic thought, but not exhaustive. Augustine and Aquinas, for example, emphasized retributive justice as part of God’s eternal nature, exercised in time, while also affirming distributive and restorative dimensions. Athanasius spoke of justice in terms of God’s restorative work through the incarnation, healing the corruption of sin. Chrysostom highlighted God’s retributive justice in his homilies, warning of divine punishment for persistent wickedness. Gregory of Nyssa described justice as the divine ordering that both rewards virtue and corrects vice. To reduce justice merely to “orderliness” flattens its richness, since Scripture and tradition consistently portray justice as multifaceted: punitive in judgment, distributive in reward, and restorative in bringing creation back into harmony with divine truth, goodness, and beauty.
“And as Truth is perfect with God, always and everywhere perfectly accomplished and accomplishing always and everywhere… there cannot be wrongdoing.”
This is one strand of patristic thought, but not exhaustive. Augustine and Aquinas, for example, emphasized retributive justice as part of God’s eternal nature, exercised in time, while also affirming distributive and restorative dimensions. Athanasius spoke of justice in terms of God’s restorative work through the incarnation, healing the corruption of sin. Chrysostom highlighted God’s retributive justice in his homilies, warning of divine punishment for persistent wickedness. Gregory of Nyssa described justice as the divine ordering that both rewards virtue and corrects vice. To reduce justice merely to “orderliness” flattens its richness, since Scripture and tradition consistently portray justice as multifaceted: punitive in judgment, distributive in reward, and restorative in bringing creation back into harmony with divine truth, goodness, and beauty.
“And as Truth is perfect with God, always and everywhere perfectly accomplished and accomplishing always and everywhere… there cannot be wrongdoing.”
Wrongdoing clearly exists in history, so the claim “there cannot be wrongdoing” contradicts both the Bible and reality. Eternity in God does not erase temporal realities. It transcends them. Wrongdoing is real in time, even if it is ultimately overcome in eternity.
“The choosing of wrongdoing upsets and corrupts the perfect order, the Truth and Goodness and Beauty of everything God creates. The attributes creatures are given in being made in the image and likeness of God are marred, and so correction is necessary to bring everything back into perfection.”
Agreed, but correction itself is an act of justice. This shows justice is not only distributive, but also retributive and restorative. Feodor's own logic admits justice must respond to wrongdoing, contradicting its earlier denial. If correction is necessary, then wrongdoing is real. If wrongdoing is real, then justice must punish and restore. Consequently, justice cannot merely be reduced to distributive harmony.
"Christian faith professes that this correction has been fully accomplished (among a host of other accomplishments) by Christ’s sacrifice and will be fully realized at the end of history, the Judgment.”
Yes, but Christ’s sacrifice itself is an act of retributive justice. Wrongdoing is punished in Christ, satisfying divine justice. To deny retribution is to deny the substitutionary nature of the cross, which is central to orthodox theology.
“Thereupon, the eternal God’s eternal attribute of Justice — the perfect and appropriate distribution of perfect goods to everything — will be eternally and perfectly cooperated with by Free and perfected creatures.”
True as a description of the eschaton, but this does not negate the necessity of retributive justice in history. Justice has multiple modes: retributive (punishment of sin), distributive (reward of righteousness), restorative (bringing creation back to order). Limiting it to distributive harmony is reductionist.
“This is the only logical and faithful sense making of the eternal God’s eternal attribute of Justice.”
This exclusivist claim ignores centuries of theological nuance. Justice in Christian theology is multifaceted: retributive, distributive, and restorative. To say only one interpretation is “logical and faithful” dismisses the richness of orthodox tradition and oversimplifies divine justice.
Yes, but Christ’s sacrifice itself is an act of retributive justice. Wrongdoing is punished in Christ, satisfying divine justice. To deny retribution is to deny the substitutionary nature of the cross, which is central to orthodox theology.
“Thereupon, the eternal God’s eternal attribute of Justice — the perfect and appropriate distribution of perfect goods to everything — will be eternally and perfectly cooperated with by Free and perfected creatures.”
True as a description of the eschaton, but this does not negate the necessity of retributive justice in history. Justice has multiple modes: retributive (punishment of sin), distributive (reward of righteousness), restorative (bringing creation back to order). Limiting it to distributive harmony is reductionist.
“This is the only logical and faithful sense making of the eternal God’s eternal attribute of Justice.”
This exclusivist claim ignores centuries of theological nuance. Justice in Christian theology is multifaceted: retributive, distributive, and restorative. To say only one interpretation is “logical and faithful” dismisses the richness of orthodox tradition and oversimplifies divine justice.
I always enjoy your excellent take-downs of that author's writings.
ReplyDeleteFeodor, your comment has already been deleted in moderation, and for good reason: it was less an attempt at dialogue than a repetition of the same confusion you’ve been corrected on before. You accuse me of positing “dormancy,” but I explicitly rejected that category mistake. Justice is eternally possessed in God’s essence, never dormant, but its relational expression begins when creatures exist. To call that dormancy is to misrepresent the position and to reveal that you have not grasped the distinction between God’s immanent life and His economic activity. You repeat the collapse you were already shown to be in error about, and then pretend it is my mistake.
ReplyDeleteYour treatment of love, mercy, and patience fares no better. Love is eternal in God’s essence, but mercy and patience are relational expressions that presuppose creatures in need of them. To say they are exercised in time is not to “interject time into eternity,” but to recognize the Creator–creature distinction. The Fathers made this distinction precisely to avoid the confusion you are now perpetuating. By erasing it, you confuse God’s eternal nature with His contingent works, which is the very categorical mistake you accuse others of. You have inverted the argument and then claimed victory over a straw man.
And your rhetorical barbs—pretension, anxiety, quoting 1 John—are diversions, not arguments. They do not answer the substance, they only attempt to shame. The irony is that your reductionism ignores the richness of tradition, while my critique stood firmly on Augustine, Aquinas, Athanasius, Chrysostom, Gregory of Nyssa. Their witness is clear: justice is multifaceted—retributive, distributive, restorative. What you call categorical mistakes are in fact the careful distinctions of orthodox theology, distinctions that prevent precisely the confusion your position creates. That is why your comments will continue to be discarded in moderation: they collapse under their own weight and add nothing to serious discourse.
Another job well done! Kudos. At some point, one would think one should get the message. Sadly, that's unlikely.
ReplyDelete